I had the privilege of sitting with Dr. Robert Glover, famed author of “No More Mr. Nice Guy” and most recently “Dating Essentials for Men. The Only Dating Guide You Will Ever Need” which is now available as a Kindle download on Amazon. We chatted for an hour about all things dating and relationships. It was a great opportunity for me to talk to one of the biggest figures in the industry and author of the #1 book I recommend to my readers. He has a wealth of knowledge and experience that all of us can benefit from.
DSO: Readers of No More Mr. Nice Guy and visitors to my site…they often ask me the same question: “When do you know you’re ready to date?” I have to say to them, “I’m sorry. I don’t have the answer to that… you’ll just KNOW”.
Dr. Glover: You’re right. I asked that same question. You’re right, you do get a sense of it and you can’t really predict it. But for me, when I ended my second marriage, it meant I’d been married about a total of 25 years to my first two wives. When I got out of my second marriage, we had a lot of struggles. I stayed way too long and when I got out I was tired. I was just tired of the heavy lifting. I was just tired and I didn’t want to listen to another woman talk about her problems. I just had no interest.
So, my book was about to come out and I dove into my work… and I’d say for six months after moving on from my second wife, I didn’t even want to talk to women. It just had no appeal to me whatsoever. I noticed maybe a woman checking me out and I think, “Oh, that woman’s checking me out. Oh, that means I’m going to have to talk to her. I’m not interested.” I was just really worn out and I wasn’t looking for “Okay, when’s the right time?”. I just kind of got busy taking care of what I needed to do. My son and stepson were seniors in high school and I wanted to spend as much time as I could with them. I just took care of business.
Probably about six to eight months after we split, I went on my book tour for the launch of No more Mr. Nice Guy. While on the book tour, I just happened to start up a conversation with a woman in a bar at happy hour, we clicked, and we ended up having sex together. Then, in another city, again having dinner in a bar, I talk to another woman and we exchanged information. About a month later, I started dating her for about 2 or 3 months, long-distance, and would see each other about once a month… and that kind of made me realize, “Okay, I’m ready.” Then I thought, “Okay, I’m going to get online and start trying online dating. I’m going to start just being more conscious about this whole dating process.” I had no idea how long that was going to be. But for me, it was about six to eight months after I split until a situation presented itself and I walked through that door. I expect that’s probably true for a lot of guys.
Actually, I would be a little bit concerned about guys that got out of a relationship, especially one that maybe was a little bit traumatic, and just immediately wanted to dive into another relationship. I tell guys to give yourself some time. You know, six months isn’t that long. For six months, just go work on you. Take care of business. Maybe go get a coach or a therapist. Join a men’s group. Do something to start making YOU a priority without trying to seek out or please the feminine. Just get your nerves settled and then spend more time thinking about what is it that you want as you move forward. I know when I got out of my second marriage, I thought man, you know, if I’m gonna have anything different I’m going to have to work at becoming a better picker and I’m gonna have to work at being a better ender. So I made a very conscious process to learn how to date with the idea of learning how to choose good women and also with the idea of learning how to how to end things quickly if this was not a woman that I had a long-term interest in.
DSO: I call the man that you want to become the “Mentally Healthy Non-Needy Man”. The Mentally Healthy Non-Needy Man is not afraid to pull the ripcord and say, “You know, I appreciate your time, sweetie, this has been great. But I just don’t think this is gonna work out”. There are a lot of men that, oh boy, that is a very high tension/high anxiety thing to do. To say, “I’m going to play the part of the bad guy” and then, in essence, tell the person across from you, “There’s something not quite right about you and I don’t want to explore this any further.” That’s a tough thing for a lot of guys to do.
Dr. Glover: It is, and it’s always been for me. I think for most men, breaking up, being a good ender, is really challenging. I think for a number of reasons, one maybe is partly our evolutionary heritage that we’re providers and protectors by nature, and I think the other is social. You’re not supposed to do anything that might ever upset a woman, and sometimes breaking up with them upsets them. A lot of guys are nice guys and they just don’t ever want to be the bad guy. For me, one of the best experiences I had, I mentioned the woman that I met in that second city, we dated for about two or three months, and I remember I went down to visit her for about the third time and we spent the weekend together. It was a very mediocre weekend. I think she had high expectations, and I wasn’t feeling it. By the time I got back home and got off the airplane, I had an email from her that said, “Hey, you know, we both know that this isn’t going any further and that we’re not the best match, so I’ll go ahead and end it now.” At first, I wanted to say, “Wait a minute why are you ending it?!” and then I thought, “Oh, wait a minute. I’m glad she did actually.” Then I thought I’m not devastated. Maybe if I can practice ending in a very clear and timely manner as well, the women won’t be devastated either, and the truth is… they never were, and I broke up with a lot of women. A guy I coach said, “Well, you know I go on a lot of one-and-done coffee dates. What’s wrong?” I say there’s nothing’s wrong. That’s right. Most dates should not last more than one date. The whole purpose of that first date is to find out is she a cool enough chick, if she interesting enough, and do you want to actually see her again? By the second or third date, you’re not going to know her all that well, but you at least should be able to start observing what is her nature and how does she fit into your life. Now, hopefully, during that time, you’re not having sex. I mean, I have no issue with one-night stands or having sex with someone the first day you meet them, but don’t pretend that that’s a good foundation for a long-term relationship. It was sex and the woman knows it and you know it. So, go slow. I always tell guys to go as slowly as possible to find out as quickly as possible what the woman’s nature is and then you be the decider. You be a good ender if this woman is not somebody that you can’t see yourself spending the rest of your life with.
DSO: What sets up a lot of men for failure from the very beginning of the whole dating process is that they go into it with the mindset of trying to find “My one real forever love”. When they’re sitting across from a woman and there are more red flags than a Chinese parade, they say, “You know, maybe that’s not so bad because I really like this other part of her. Maybe that other glaringly bad thing is not so glaringly bad because I really like this other thing… because I’m kind of desperate to find Mrs. Right and I can’t just throw away this one who actually gives me attention. She makes me feel really good right now.” They hang on and they hang on. That’s always disastrous.
Dr. Glover: Yeah, you know, I’ve been saying for a while, having been a marriage counselor for over 30 years and then teaching men to date, and being married myself and doing this from personal experience, is that there are three things that most men based their long-term relationship decision on. Number one: she isn’t too bad looking, but usually not too good-looking either because that scares us. Number two: she seems to be showing interest in us. Number three: at some point, she wants to have sex with us. Well, she agrees to have sex with us.
In my approach to dating, I tell guys that dating is not an attempt to get a woman to like you. Dating is actually a process of you growing up and clearing out all of your self-limiting beliefs and growing as a man because no woman’s ever going to give us what our male brain thinks she is going to give us. That whole process of trying to get a woman to like you or try to get her to have sex with you just sets up a really bad differential because she’s now the decider. She has all the powers. She’s the alpha. You’re the beta. You’re the pleaser. Even if that leads to something, that’s going to be the foundation for that relationship. You trying to figure out how to make her happy, keep her liking you, and keep her from leaving you. That’s not a great way to approach it.
DSO: Very well put, and in fact in your new book, “Dating Essentials”, you talk about taking baby steps, not jumping into the deep end of the pool right off the bat, and it’s something I always tell guys as well. There was a guy recently on my Facebook page who talks about how he has a lot of social anxiety after a marriage that ended with his wife cheating and his solution was just to go to a singles mixer. The event was put on solely for the purpose of getting people to meet each other and possibly date. He went in and just stared at his feet the whole time and was nervous as hell and said, “This isn’t for me” and he left. He later posted, “I just don’t think this whole dating thing is for me. I’m doomed to be alone.” I told him, well, you have to do these little baby steps first, like approaching random people where there’s no implied reciprocation. You’re not going up to them to get a date. You just go up to a random stranger and say something like, “I like your shoes.”
Dr. Glover: Yeah. I call it testing for interest. One of the things that I say in all my dating material is that I’m really not teaching men to date. I’m actually helping men raise their social and emotional intelligence, and in the process of raising their social and emotional intelligence, they become much more attractive… and then dating actually gets easy because then you’re choosing from lots of women that are showing you signals of interest. You’re walking through open doors rather than pounding on closed doors or avoiding the doors all together because you have so much anxiety. So yeah, that testing for Interest really does involve, and I say it in all of my Dating Essentials for Men podcasts, get out of the house, expand your route, linger in public, talk to the people you meet, test for interest, and walk through the open doors. It’s not any more complicated than that. I’m sure you’ve seen this, a lot of guys when they get out there dating after having not done it for a long time, they make it really complicated. It’s like, “I got to go to a pickup boot camp or I got to go to a hot club and approach the hottest women in there and try to get their numbers” and that’s way too difficult. That’s shit that even the pros have to really work at. Don’t make it difficult, because, like that guy you talked about, if you make it way too difficult, the first bad experience you have, the first time a woman has low interest or you get rejected or you feel foolish. You think “Well, I’m never doing that again”, and then you just you hole up at home watching TV, surfing the internet looking at porn, and reading red pill shit and resenting women. It doesn’t serve you.
DSO: You do touch in your book about resisting the whole notion of painting women with a very negative toxic paintbrush. I see that a lot with some of my readers where they say, “Well, obviously all women are whores” as if they’re saying “The sky is blue”.
Dr. Glover: Right. In my weekly Dating Essentials newsletter, I’ve got a Q&A, and one guy asked me about hypergamy. He said, “I read this a lot online: all women are hypergamous”. I said, you know, that’s just a fancy term that internet writers have applied to women to justify their resentment, that all women are looking to trade up. The basic premise of my blog post was “Look around. Women settle for losers all the time”. Most women don’t have the intelligence, the good looks, and the Machiavellian cunning to be constantly trading up. That’s just not how most are wired. Maybe there are few gold diggers out there, but anytime we say all women are whores, all women are gold diggers, all women just want blah blah blah, you know, that’s just projecting our experience with a woman or two out on all women. What’s really going on, as you said, a lot of times these guys just have some social anxiety. They never really learned how to interact with women. Well, when they do it, they either do it clumsily, anxiously, or not at all, and then when they don’t have dating success, they blame the women. That just that doesn’t serve us well. I promise you, if you’re walking around trying to date, feeling resentful and bitter towards women, you’re going to radiate that shit and women are going to pick it up and you’re going to be radioactive. They’re not gonna want anything to do with you.
DSO: Absolutely, and the people that you do attract are going to be extremely toxic in nature.
Dr. Glover: There you go. That’s the other side of that coin. You are going to attract what you believe to be true. I don’t think there’s any magical Law of Attraction built into that, it’s just true. You are going to attract what you believe to be true.
DSO: I think the big source of a lot of this “Red Pill” angry male sentiment out there is that a lot of men at a very early age have been taught to put women on a pedestal. I always joke that the Red Pill can be summarized as “Holy crap. You mean women are assholes too?!”
Dr. Glover: Ha. Yeah, they’re not always nice. They’re insecure and they got issues too.
DSO: There can be sociopathic women. There can be narcissistic women. There can be hypersexual women. Just like men, they can be all of these things, but many men just can’t believe that their mother, aunt, wife, or girlfriend is capable of doing these bad things. Then when you start digging and ask, “Well tell me how your relationship started?”, you can just count the red flags as you go along with their story. The man just ignored the flags and jumped right over them. “Well, she did have two kids by two different men…and she was an alcoholic”.... he just builds this awful resume for her, and he can’t believe it ended so horribly. Well, of course it did. Everyone else in his world saw it coming.
Dr. Glover: Here’s the one red flag that most men ignore, and I’ve ignored it as well, which is why I know about it: A woman that is bitter about a past relationship, or past relationships. Every time I’ve gotten with a woman and she kept harping on her stories about her ex… you know, what a jerk he was, what an ass he was, how he did this, how he treated her that way… especially if they are that way about more than one man in their past… Anytime I got far enough in with these women, and I tend to be attracted to that kind of woman because I’m a fixer by nature, I actually begin to have empathy for the man that they used to be with. I’m thinking maybe he wasn’t such a jerk. Maybe there are two things going on. Maybe she drove him fucking crazy and he didn’t handle it well, or maybe that’s just her. Every man is a jerk and I’m going to be in that category sometime soon. Just like I would tell women, stay away from a man that’s just packing around a bunch of negative stuff about women and about his ex. I tell men the same thing. If a woman is packing around negative stuff about men in general or about any ex, stay away from them because you’re just going to be the next story that she’s going to be telling the next guy because she will turn you into one of those jerks.
DSO: Absolutely. How many men do we know in these very vulnerable states of mind that get into a relationship with a woman and she absolutely dictates every facet of his emotionality? He’s depressed because she’s depressed. He’s happy because she’s having a great day.
Dr. Glover: Yeah, exactly. Probably most of your followers really can relate to that, and I get it. I’m the same way. It’s kind of like when they say happy wife/happy life. Okay, if I can just get her happy, I can be happy. As you know, that is so reverse. We’ve got to get out and fill our own bucket up and make ourselves happy. That makes us less needy. It makes us less dependent on any one person, and it makes us more attractive to women. It makes us less dependent on trying to manage a woman’s mood or happiness.
DSO: So many of us become, in one facet or another, the child in a relationship when we get into a relationship with a woman. She becomes our surrogate mother. You had a concept in your book about this that you called “spending too much time in the nursery”.
Dr. Glover: Yeah, and you’re even going back to No More Mr. Nice Guy where I talk about being monogamous to mother. Our mothers are always our first love object. If we grew up in a relatively healthy family system, the mother is not going to be hooking up an emotional hose to us and using us to get her needs met. Dad will be available to help initiate us into masculine adulthood. But for a lot of guys, including me, that didn’t happen. We kind of grew up with this model around women that oh, I’ve got to make her happy. I’ve got to keep her in a good mood. I’ve got to please her. All that does is, number one, you’re attracting women that kind of need that all the time and you’re training them that this is the way that you’ll always be. Again, this is where I tell guys we got to get out and get connected with men and that’s part of getting out of the nursery. I see that with so many men, especially younger men who grew up with the internet. They just followed the path of least resistance in life. They have women friends that they’re in the friend zone with, there’s no sexual polarity, they repressed their sexuality, they get it all their sexual needs met through porn on the internet, they watch a lot of TV, they’re surfing the internet, whatever… and they never grow up. They’re in that nursery, seeking female validation while never doing anything that really challenges them. Any kind of real challenge scares them. I’m in a men’s program and there are like 50 guys in the program of all ages and types and what I see with a lot of the younger men… It’s like they’re completely lost in life. Maybe they’re fit and they’re in good shape, but it’s like they’re like little boys seeking the approval of their mothers and that’s not attractive to women. Whatever women you do attract, I promise you the women will typically be fairly controlling and dominant. The little boy in the nursery is still trying to figure out how to please a woman who probably can’t be pleased, but we think we can if we just try harder because she says we can make her happy if we just would do this right or stop doing that other thing.
DSO: Yes, one of the grand ironies of being in a relationship with a woman is that if you allow her to dictate your behavior, and you start swinging your pendulum over in that direction, invariably you become less attractive to her.
Dr. Glover: Yep. A lot of guys will even tell me, hey when I first met a woman I set the tone, I led, I created polarity… but then once we started dating each other and she became my girlfriend, I slipped back into the whole Mr. Nice Guy boat. It’s because you’ve got an investment, right? You want her to stay your girlfriend. You want her to keep wanting to sleep with you. We then go into that pleasing mode, and yes, it has the very opposite effect.
The book I’m working on now, the working title is “Positive Emotional Tension” and the basic message is that women have to experience emotional tension all the time to experience an attraction towards a man, sexual arousal, and to stay attached to him over time. But unfortunately, we men don’t like emotional tension, especially in relationships. We want everything calm and smooth and easy and predictable, so we don’t create emotional tension for the woman by pleasing and playing it safe. Any emotional tension the woman might create we try to kill that. Then we can understand why the woman loses sexual interest in us, and then maybe loses complete interest in us. We weren’t doing anything to give to that woman what she needed to feel attracted and aroused by us.
DSO: Yeah. I always call it “That little bit of early relationship anxiety” that women seem to just really eat up. “What does he think about me? Does he really like me? What’s he doing now? Is he seeing that girl ?” We immediately try to squash this as men because we don’t like that. We like comfort. We like the tranquility and we like the feeling that everything’s cool. So, naturally, we try to squash that uncertainty. “No no, sweetie. I love you. I’m only with you. I’m predictable. I’m safe. I’ll take care of all your problems. Don’t worry.”
Dr. Glover: Yeah, that kills it. Yeah. If I’m dating a woman and she brought up the “What are we?” conversation, and if I was not ready, I’d tell them, “Hey, until we have a conversation that you and I are seeing each other exclusively, you need to assume I’m seeing other people.” If they would say, “Well, are you?”, even if I wasn’t I would say, “You need to assume that I am until we have a conversation otherwise.” Like you said, I used to think that me doing anything that might upset the woman is going to kill her interest in me. No, the opposite is true. Everything you do to try to make the woman happy kills her interest.
DSO: Exactly. I think this is why you see so many men report to me that they caught their wife in an affair because her behavior changed so dramatically. She all of a sudden decided to start dressing younger, she started acting younger, she started hanging out with a different group, she lost 50 pounds, etc… and I say, “Well, it sounds like she was in the early stages of The Mating Game. She’s trying to attract or hold onto somebody that she’s found attractive. That’s what you do when you’re dating someone at first. I want to look my best. I want to act my most attractive.” For women, that means “I want to look as young and vibrant and as happy as possible because that’s that’s what will keep this new guy that I have interest in hanging around.” That’s what these guys see. They’re seeing the early Mating Game process right in front of them and there they think she’s gone crazy. No, she’s in love.
Dr. Glover: And she is feeling that emotional tension with a guy that she can’t completely get all in with and he can’t completely get in all with her. That’s why affairs create so much emotional tension. There’s that longing, that uncertainty, that expectation which are really really powerful tools for creating emotional tension. Affairs have that built into them. It’s just that constant uncertainty. “When am I going to see him again? When am I gonna get a message?” It builds shitloads of emotional tension into a relationship and it’s why most relationships that begin as an affair go south really quickly, once the couple can actually get together.
DSO: When they catch their wife in the affair and they see she is so embroiled in all this chaos of the moment and she’s so in love, the man will try to out-rationalize that. “Well, let me sit down with her and build the case for why this is stupid what she’s doing. Look, we have three kids. We got the house. We’ve been together 25 years, bla bla bla.” He can’t believe that she just doesn’t see any of this. I’ve even had men say they have written this out on paper for the wife to read, as in “Top 10 reason why you what you’re doing is stupid and you shouldn’t throw our marriage away”. I always tell them to stop, that they are absolutely no match for those feelings she’s having right now.
Dr. Glover: If the guys want to know what to do differently… basically it’s as simple as this: “Okay, I know you’re seeing somebody else. You know, I want a woman who wants to be with me. Do you want to be with me? Yes or no. Do you want to be with me? If you want to be with me, you have a choice. Stop it with that person and we get all in and we go to work on what’s wrong here, or we’re done now.” That brings such a backbone, such an aliveness to that conversation, that she will be immediately turned on. I’m not saying do this thinking, “Well, here’s how I manipulate the situation”. She’s emotionally killing you. You cannot do anything right from here on out. As soon as she’s interested in somebody else, everything you do is going to be wrong. Even if you say you either get all the way in with me now and we go to work on it or you leave now, she’ll make that wrong as well, but it will still turn her on and create some emotional tension that all of a sudden will make that other guy look a lot less attractive.
DSO: In your experience working with all of your clients, how often have you seen a man and a woman be able to turn things around after female-driven infidelity and go back to working on the marriage? Does that happen often?
Dr. Glover: Here’s my experience. I actually specialized in that with couples for a number of years in my practice as a marriage and family therapist. I actually turned that into a specialty and put a yellow page ad: “Healing after infidelity”. What I found out is there are usually two types of situations. One is you have a Serial cheater. This could be a man or a woman where you know for whatever reason… emotionally, physically, sexually… they’re just not wired to be monogamous. Actually, I think none of us are, but there are some people that they’re just going to serially cheat. It’s just their nature and that’s not going to change. In most situations, the cheating is because the people in the relationship just got fucking bored with each other. They quit treating each other well, they quit creating emotional tension, they quit having an interesting life together, and it’s not that the person who cheated often went out looking for it. It often finds them.
I tell guys, if you’re not creating emotional tension for a woman and you’re in a long-term relationship, she’ll go through a few stages. One is she’ll create a lot of emotional tension, but it’s often negative. She’ll start fights, she’ll nag, she’ll criticize, she’ll complain, she’ll flirt with your best friend… She’ll do things trying to create tension to get you to connect with her. If that doesn’t work over a period of time, they tend to go where they can get their needs or emotional tension met through other things. It can be the kids. It can be work. It can be their friends. Many women, they just eat, spend money, go shopping, you know, whatever to try to get some momentary buzz, and then they’re like a forest that hasn’t been rained on in a few years. It hasn’t had a good fire in many years. Somebody pays a little attention and it truly is just like a spark in a tinder-dry forest. They’re on fire. It just feels amazing. It feels great. They can’t get enough of it. That’s how most affairs begin. It’s usually not because most people are serial cheaters. There are enough of those people out there, men and women, but mostly it’s just because you know, it’s gone dry and then something comes along.
Now, I’ve found that when people did come into my office, if there was enough love between them, maybe enough reasons to stay together, and the person who is cheating was willing to come clean, be honest, cut off that source of their drug, you know of the affair, and everybody was willing to get real with each other… I saw a lot of relationships become deeper, more loving and more vibrant than they had ever been before. So an affair can wake things up. I’m not suggesting it as a way to wake things up. But, like I said, usually it’s not a person going to look for more sex. There’s something that just finds them and they’re just so primed for it. So yes, I’ve seen it get better, but the person who’s had the affair has got to get real and get honest and the person on the other side usually has to grow a backbone and start showing some leadership in the relationship.
DSO: That second part there, showing the leadership in the relationship… I have yet to see that with any of my readers who have approached me. They’ve always taken the route of saying, “I’m going to try out nice this situation and fix it. She always said she wanted more gifts. Here are more gifts.” In other words, he’s just rewarding the horrible behavior.
Dr. Glover: Yeah, exactly. Just rewarding the bad behavior. I’ve been cheated on before. Not a lot. It’s not the pattern I tend to attract, but I’ve also cheated so I do know the other side of it and my experience is that most of it is just due to the lack of tension or it’s due to a person who can’t be faithful.
Most of the women I’ve been with in the last 15 years, including my present wife, said to me, “How come you never get jealous?” I’ll say, “Well, you’ve never given me a reason to be jealous. If you give me a reason, I’ll let you know I’m not happy”. But the bottom line is if you want to be with me great. I want to be with you. If you don’t want to be with me, if you want to be with someone else, great. Get the hell out. That’s not worth getting jealous about. If you want the attention of another man, wonderful. Just tell me you want the attention of this other guy. I’ll let you go. I’m not going to fight with you about it. I’m not going to try to get you to come back. I want to be with a woman who wants to be with me. If that’s you, great. I got nothing to be jealous about. So that’s number one for me. I want to be with a woman who wants to be with me. If she doesn’t want to be with me, adios! See you later. I’ve got no interest in that, so I have no reason to get jealous.
But yeah, like you said, the pleasing them and trying to make them happy or trying to convince them to quit having an affair. Good luck.
DSO: What you’re doing with that response is, you’re portraying this essence of abundance. You are ancillary to my life. Without you I’m not going to curl up in a ball and die, so jump on and get on this ride of my life or not. It’s totally up to you. If not, hey, no hard feelings. See you later.
Dr. Glover: See you later. You move on. Yeah, I call it guys creating their great cake of a life. If you have a great cake of a life… good guy friends, pursuing your passions, working out regularly, leaning into challenge, giving your gift to the world… that’s your great cake. At best, the woman is the icing on top. You can have a great cake without icing, but I promise you as soon as you make a woman your cake or even make her one of the key ingredients of your cake, of your overall happiness and well-being in life, you’re going to be miserable. Make your cake and invite a great woman to be the icing on top. If you have to go without icing for a while, that’s okay. You’ll still have a great cake and you’ll still be amazingly magnetically attractive to women because they love a man with a great cake.
DSO: I always tell men, “The women ain’t going anywhere.” It’s okay to give them a break for a while. You don’t have, as a man, the biological clock ticking. I have found that a lot of men are taking their mating/dating cues from women who in fact do have that urgency. Women will say, “Hey, I’m 35 years old. I don’t have a man right now. I’ve been dreaming of having a baby and a man since I’ve been 12 years old. I’m almost passed my prime. Let’s get to this.” I’ve also had guys tell me, “I’m not getting any younger. It’s time for me to find a woman.” It’s like, dude… you just got divorced a month ago. Give it time. There’s no biological clock here. You’re fine.
Dr. Glover: Yeah. I’ve got a friend who is 67 and he’s dating a 25-year-old. I’ve met her. She’s a nice person. I don’t think they’ll be together very long. The age difference really is too significant, and it is more than just that, but anyway, I remember asking him I said, “Well, does she want kids?” and he goes, “I don’t know. I don’t care. I’m not going to even ask her. By the time her clock’s ticking and she may want kids, I’ll probably be dead. It doesn’t matter.”
I actually liked that attitude. Why should he do something to give in to her clock, or her needs, at his age? He’s never been married. He’s never had kids. He’s not thinking, “I’m 67. I better get out there and get married and have kids.” He lives an amazing life. That’s why he’s attracted to 25-year-olds. But yeah, he’s in no hurry to make anything happen. And I know if he gets bored of this one, or it doesn’t work out, next time I drop in to see him, she’ll probably be gone. He doesn’t hold onto them too long either if it’s not working out. He doesn’t need it for his ego.
DSO: Lastly, you touched on monogamy and saying that you’re not quite sure that’s our natural state as human beings, to begin with. There is a growing trend of open marriages right now. If you do a quick Google search… CNN did a story on the subject, it was covered in the New York Times, blogs, etc. They have headlines all about the rise of open marriages and how interesting it is that it is driven mostly by women. They are way more likely to say, “Honey, have you ever thought about sleeping around with others?” than a man is to bring it up. This goes right back to your point of saying there’s no more tension in their relationship. My point has always been… boy, there’s no way to introduce that sexy tension back into a relationship more than having sex with a new person. What an interesting phenomenon we have going on, how open marriages aren’t new, but they’re being thrust forth a legitimate alternative to monogamy right now in the mainstream press.
Dr. Glover: Yea, the spin that media is putting on it is this has been initiated by women, which …this goes down a whole other road which I’m actually going down in my next book about emotional tension. My basic premise is, because of our evolutionary wiring, we’re not wired for monogamy. Pair-bonded relationships only existed for less than 10,000 years in human existence. We’ve been communal sexually and otherwise for probably a million and a half to 2 million years where the tribe met all the needs of all the people. That meant everybody had sex with everybody, everybody raises the kids, everybody did whatever was needed to contribute to the well-being of everyone else. Now in this process, which to me is really interesting because it goes against how most men think, something about our evolutionary process wired women to be what I call “Sexual Ferraris”. They’re high energy, highly-tuned sexual machines.
Now, men say, ‘“What are you talking about?” But if you look at women, they are wired to have more sex more often with more partners and enjoy it more than men. I can prove that easily. Women are, I think, one of only two or three mammals that like to fuck for fun. They have sex out of season when they’re not in estrus. Whereas the average guy has one maybe two places on his body that can trigger an orgasm, I’ve known women that had four or five places. I’ve known women you could lick their nipples and they come, or they could think about sex and come. They’re highly wired machines. But we’ve got this idea that women aren’t that interested in sex, they’re very choosy, very this, or very that… and I’m saying well, okay, I think men have made sex costly for women in terms of how we structured the patriarchy for 10,000 years, and I’m not going to go off on the whole patriarchy thing because a lot of that’s just noise anyway, but men were trying to provide and protect for women. I think we were trying to guard property. So if women were not interested in sex, why did we invent chastity belts? Why do we put them in burkas? Why did we put scarlet letters on their foreheads? Why did we stone them for having sex? Why do most religions preach against a woman’s sexuality? If women did not like sex and didn’t like to be fucked and fucked well, why is it that men worked so hard to try to repress female sexuality?
So it doesn’t surprise me that women might be leading this movement towards open marriages. I’ll hear guys say, “Well, I haven’t had that experience with women” and I’ll say that well, probably two things have happened. One, you’ve either picked really wounded women that don’t like sex, or when it comes to sex we men are basically sexual mopeds. We think sex is finding any handy hole to stick our dick in and ejaculate and that’s good sex. If a sexual Ferrari has that kind of experience enough times with the guy, do you think she’s going to keep coming back for more of that? So I teach men that a lot of it goes back to this creating emotional tension. Men have to learn how to drive a sexual Ferrari. If we don’t learn how to drive that sexual Ferrari, they will go looking for something else because it’s how they’re wired. They are wired to be fucked often and fucked well, and I don’t mean that in a dismissive way at all. It’s just how women are wired by Mother Nature and if a man is not having that experience with women the man needs to take a look at what’s going on on his end of things
DSO: He’s just not pushing her buttons. I always say that once the women’s buttons are pushed they run laps around us men. Women need to feel safe and free to express their sexuality. A good example is when she is with friends at a bachelorette party and there’s a male stripper. Everyone just kind of agrees that they can all act crazy. Just sit down with a male stripper and talk to him and say, “Tell me your greatest stories” and just prepare to wowed.
Yet, many men are blown away by this and instead of embracing female sexuality for what it is, which there’s nothing inherently bad about it… just like there’s nothing inherently bad about our “horny male nature”… so many men, especially young men, are looking at it as a very negative thing. It’s almost as if there’s a secret these women are holding from us all this time. For a lot of men, their answer to exposing the “truth” is to completely avoid women altogether. I see that a lot. They pride themselves on that. No dates. No sex. No nothing for years and years.
Dr. Glover: Yeah. There’s a whole movement out there: “Men Going Their Own Way”. I keep coming across more and more of the different manifestations of what the internet helps men to do. They basically complain and feel done to and victimized and whine a lot. But yeah, I’m all about empowering men, and I know you are too, and I think if we can see men and women more accurately without all of our judgments and projections, we can have more compassion, more empathy and a hell of a lot more fun. If we can let go of all of our negative projections, we can find a woman or women who do want to play and have fun and have a good time with us and bless our lives as we bless theirs. But, I promise you, you’re not going to bless their lives by just giving them more goodies or trying to be that nice guy that hides his sexual interest from them. They get bored with that.
DSO: Well said. So, after they read your new book, “Dating Essentials for Men” and they want to take it to the next level, can they sign up with you for some coaching sessions or anything similar?
Dr. Glover: Yeah, first check out the book see if it’s your cup of tea. I call it “the un-pick up guide to dating success”. It really is about, as I said, creating a social and emotional intelligence that attracts women to you and then learning what to do from there. If it clicks for you, I have what I call a dating Essentials bonus bundle. It’s got 25 plus hours of recorded Q&A with me, the Dating Essentials for Men A to Z encyclopedia where I answer over 200 questions in a digital format, a workbook, monthly coaching sessions that are part of the bundle, and a private Facebook group… so there’s a lot of goodies all packed into that. Just go to datingessentialsformen.com, then check out the books. There’s also the e-book on Amazon right now. I just got a contract to do an Audible version of it. Hopefully, we’ll have it in print soon. Datingessentialsformen.com is where they can find it all.
DSO: Very cool. It sounds like you have some other books in the works?
Dr. Glover: Yes, I set a goal last year to write ten books in ten years and Dating Essentials for Men was one, The Dating Encyclopedia the other, the next one I’m working on as I said, I’m calling it right now “Positive Emotional Tension”, and then I’ve got a whiteboard right to my side here with a list of several more that hopefully I’ll get written in the next 10 years.
DSO: Your first book was No More Mr. Nice Guy, correct?
Dr. Glover: Yes, No more. Mr. Nice guy is my first book, Dating Essentials for Men is the second.
DSO: For those not familiar with No More Mr. Nice Guy, you do have groups that are scattered around the country that people can go meet in person with other men, correct?
Dr. Glover: I’ve got several certified coaches and therapists that have done training with me and a lot of them do have groups. There are also online groups. Yeah, they can just check out drglover.com and you can find my workshops and my seminars. I have an online university with self-help courses, the certified coaches and therapists, consultation… So visit both drglover.com and datingessentialsformen.com.
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